Armenian Letters 4 : Part II

Milleti Sadika 'The Loyal Nation'

Maral Der Ohanesian's Response to JTW Editor

Dear Editor,

Before I start “PART TWO” of my response to your letter, I want to make the following comment: First of all, I think that you made a serious error when you decided to post the opinions of someone with a fake name in a comment page of your website http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=1783.

I thought that we had an agreement that this dialog is a one-on-one dialog between you, Dr. Laciner, the Editor in Chief of the JTW, and this ordinary Armenian girl. I don't want to believe that you broke your agreement, according to which, comments from any reader on this subject should have been posted in the “Letters To Editor” section. I suggest that you correct that unintentional mistake by removing this fake article and placing it in the "Letters to the Editor" section.

Mutual respect is the number one rule between you and I in this dialog. This is not a circus where any anonymous clown can jump in the middle of the conversation trying to do some tricks and expect us to applaud him/her/it. It won’t make any difference if the fake name is “Hold Water” or “ Mickey Mouse.” Excuse me, but this is unprofessional and unacceptable.

Therefore, I don't wish to respond to someone who is too cowardly to disclose his/her/its real name. For all you know, he/she/it could be a criminal or an ex-convict or even a wanted terrorist. I don't have the time for such speculations. Therefore, I will not respond to his/her/its comments. I'm sorry, but I won't stoop that low. The bottom line is: no name, no credibility, no opinion! Since that person, whoever it is, wrote an opinion piece, it does matter whose opinion it is. Please do not think that what matters is the opinion and not whose is it. Wouldn't the readers want to know whether a particular statement is made by Hitler, Mohammed or Mickey Mouse? It does matter, doesn't it? That is why no self-respecting credible journal would print an opinion column under a fake name.

If you want my answers to any of his/her/its nonsense assertions, implications or comments, there is only one way that would happen: Adopt whatever you wish of his/her/its comments, rephrase it in a more non-offensive and respectful style, put your name on the comment, then I would consider responding to it.

What did surprise me the most is how did you allow this interference in our dialog? Theis only weakened your argument, and negatively affect your position in this dialog, especially when this person wrote the following words about you personally: “Dr. Laciner has done a fine job of responding, but some of these claims called for more specific scrutiny.”

Saying that you [Dr. Laciner] did a fine job, but it was not good enough, so let the “professional” handle it?!! Excuse me, but how is this acceptable to you, especially coming from someone who doesn't have any ID?! Even if one ignores his/her/its unacceptable tone in writing and personal attacks on other people rather than making a real point or argument!

One last thing: I couldn't help but laugh when I read this: “I wrote to Dr. Akgun, asking if the report was true. She replied, wondering whether the 2-3 million referred to the worldwide population. Whomever translated the above made it sound as though she meant 'within the borders of the Ottoman Empire .'"

Please!! Did he/she/it think that the JTW readers are that stupid? He/she/it keeps forgetting the fact that a person with a fake name can just as easily make up a fake e-mail! And that “made up” stuff won’t hold water against published material.

As you can see, in that typical revisionist/denialist piece, there is nothing solid -- no document, no evidence, nothing! This is just an attempt to cast doubt on the facts. I presume you have a Ph.D., Dr. Laciner, therefore, you should know that scientific research doesn't work that way. A theory needs to be proven by evidence, not empty words hidden under a fake name!

Now let’s return to “PART TWO” of my response, to Your Letter 3.

You have provided 5 suggested reasons for the Armenian Casualties, but if you look more carefully to those 5 reasons, you find only “One” perpetrator, The Turkish Government of the infamous Committee of Union and Progress.

1-Bad Administration: The Government to blame for it.

2-Deportation: (you describe it as Relocation): I don’t think that there is a need to say that Relocation means that when you kick people out of their homes, you’ll need to find measures to “relocate” them, give them new homes, or at least compensate their home’s loss, something that never happened, and never planned to happen.

The testimony of Ali Fuad Erden, a Turkish General with military jurisdiction over the Mesopotamia regions to which Armenians were deported can give a confirmation about the fact that it wasn’t a “Relocation,” but a “Deportation” or “Exile” of the Armenian population. In his post-war memoirs he emphatically declared that “…there was neither preparation, nor organization to shelter the hundreds of thousands of the deportees." [1]

Dr. Ahmet Kuyas, of Turkish Galatasaray University consents by saying “…When the [Ottoman] state took the decision to march away all the young and the old, the male and the female people up to the age of 70 from Tokat to Aleppo, it was well aware that more than the half of them wouldn’t be able to reach their destination. To march away all these people meant to send them to death… Talaat Pasha [was] guilty for this act." [2]

So, as you see, it wasn’t a Relocation, it was a Deportation of masses of people, sending them to the desert without ANY food, medication or rest, expose them to inhuman circumstances, by marching for months under the heat and hungry, expose them to criminal attacks by local Turks and Kurds, in addition to the abuse and murders by soldiers and special organizations of criminals. If all of that wasn’t enough to be described as government responsibility for its subjects’ systemic destruction and deaths, then what is in your opinion?!

3-War circumstances: This would be also the government’s responsibility. The reckless decisions of the leading circles of the government dragged the Ottoman Empire to the WWI.

4-“Communal Clashes” (in your words): This was not the case as I said earlier, because:

As you accepted in your previous message, which is a well known fact, that all able bodied men were recruited in the war. Who is then fighting in these massive so-called communal clashes?!

Do you think that it would be possible for old men, women and children, who were still frightened by memories of the massacres that had happened against them for decades earlier, to engage in a “Communal Clash” or “Civil War” against Muslims protected by the government, army and police?!

Then the communal clash is a clash between two tribes or distinct groups of people taking advantage of the “Absence” of the “Central Authority.” Now another question imposes itself here, do you think that a Government that leads a World War and dictates the Empire through it for four years, can be described as an “Absent authority”?! And let me remind you that World War I, under the leadership of the CUP, continued for two other years after the uprooting of the Armenians from their home was totally finished in 1916.Therefore is absolutely no basis for your “communal” clash argument.

5- “Riot” (in your words): Let’s examine that argument.

It is a well known fact, accepted by the whole world, even by Ataöv, one of the Turkish government’s leading revisionists, and other revisionists like Sonyal, that Armenians for FIVE Centuries and up to the WWI were known in the Ottoman Empire as the “Millet-i Sadik-a”, which can be translated, “The Loyal Nation”, “The Truth-telling Nation” or “The Most Trustworthy Nation."

It is also an accepted fact that the leaders of the major Armenian political party at the time, the Dashnaktzoutiun, as early as August 1914, publicly declared its allegiance to the Ottoman state, and called on the Ottoman Armenian population to support the Ottoman Empire as loyal citizens in its war with Russia and the Allies, although they refused to form militias to attack the Russian villages on the eastern front. At the same time the Armenian Patriarchate also officially declared the loyalty and support of the Armenian people to the Ottoman State in the WWI.

More confirmation on Ottoman Armenian “Loyalty” was a testimony by “Enver Pasha” himself, the Minister of Harbiya. In January 22, 1915, upon his arrival to Constantinople from Sivas , after his bitter defeat in Sarikamish, he made a speech congratulating the Armenians for “admirably” doing their duty and praising their loyalty and bravery on the Caucasian front and elsewhere. Moreover he thanked the Armenian soldier who “saved” him from being killed or captured by the Czarist forces. [3]

So what was “really” going on?! And where did all those lies of general riot and “Millet-i Sadika-a”’s treachery, and joining the Russian army allegations came from?

It was an “Agenda” of the Ittihad Leaders who tried to “Justify” their Crimes against their Armenian subjects, and it was followed by all the consequent governments, except for the Turkish governments between 1918-1923, which did actually acknowledge this “Crime” against the Armenians, and called for “Punishment” of the perpetrators. Prof. Deborah Dwork, the notable Holocaust Scholar and the Director of the Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Clark University , summarizes the Ittihad ve Terakki’s agenda, by saying:

“The first item on this agenda concerns the liquidation of the Armenians. Ittihad will dangle before the Allies a specter of an alleged revolution prepared by the Armenian Dashnak party. Moreover, local incidents of social unrest and acts of Armenian self-defense will deliberately be provoked and inflated and will be used as pretexts to effect the deportations. Once en route, however, the convoys will be attacked and exterminated by Kurdish and Turkish brigands, and in part by gendarmes, who will be instigated for that purpose by Ittihad.” [4]

A similar judgment was expressed, in an official German archival document, by Count Wolff Metternich, the German Ambassador to Turkey, who reported to Berlin in September 18, 1916, saying: “There was neither a concerted general uprising nor was there a fully valid proof that such a synchronized uprising was planned or organized.” [5]

Another historical testimony about the “Fabrication” of CUP Government leaders in order to “Justify” their hideous crimes, stated by the German vice-consul in Erzerum, Dr. Max Erwin Scheubner-Richter who wrote in an official dispatch dated December 6, 1916 describing the futile and spotty Armenian resistance:

”They [the Turkish Leaders] were planning on fabricating, for the benefit of Allied Powers, an alleged revolution stirred up by the Dashnak (Armenian) party. They also planned to inflate the importance of isolated incidents and acts of self-defense by the Armenians and use them as an excuse to deport the targeted population which then would be massacred by escorting gendarmes and assorted gangs.”

So what were the civilian Armenians trying to defend themselves against?!In his account, Vice-Marshall Joseph Pomiankowski, the Austro-Hungary's (Ottoman ally’s) military plenipotentiary, who during the war was attached to Ottoman general headquarters, described the self-defense of the Armenians as follows:

"The Van uprising certainly was an act of desperation. The local Armenians realized that the general butchery against the Armenians had started and that they would be the next victims.” [6]

Thus, as the Official archival documents of the Ottoman Empire allies on one hand, and eyewitnesses including the survivors of the Genocide on the other hand, agree on the fact that when the “General Butchery” against the Armenians started and as the news reached the Armenians in the other vilayets, they knew what was their fate to be, therefore some of them in an act of desperation tried to resist forthcoming deportation and avoid annihilation, and chose to “defend” themselves, their homes and families against the released criminals and soldiers. But, all those self-defense acts, resistance to Turkish slaughter, ended by the invasion of the soldiers. And the “Whole” Armenian population was “Wiped Out” and uprooted from their homes, farms, shops and properties, which were looted, then seized and sold to the benefit of the “Government.”

Now, as I show with historical official archival documents of the Ottoman Allies that the Ottoman Armenians were no threat to the Empire, and that they were “only” defending themselves and their homes against the Ottoman soldiers, police, tax collectors and special organizations, let’s examine your other sentence. You wrote “Many Armenians joined the Russian armies and many of them were killed by the Ottoman Armies.”

I honestly can’t believe, how can anyone who have any idea about history and geography fall for an attempted meaningless mingling like that!!

First of all, you must understand that there were two different Armenian populations involved in the WWI. The Armenian citizens of the Russian Empire, who joined the Russian army as any Russian citizen on the side of the Allies, and the Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Empire, who declared their loyalty to the Ottomans in the WWI and joined the Ottoman Army as citizens of the Empire, only to be disarmed and massacred by the Turkish military.

As historian Jay Winter of Cambridge University described:

"It became a political and strategic threat when the war broke out because of the place of Armenians in the Russian Empire. However, most Armenians, two million of them living in the Turkish Empire , were no threat whatsoever. [7]

Genocide deniers and revisionists, intentionally handle this issue with ambiguity, taking advantage of most people’s ignorance about historical and geographical facts, by just saying that Armenians joined the Russian army, but which Armenians? It was the Russian citizen Armenians. That’s what they don’t say.



Now how can you hold the “Whole” Ottoman Armenian citizens accountable, for the loyalty of the Russian Armenian citizens?!
Is that in your opinion “Treachery”?!
Does that in your opinion “justify” Genocide against the Ottoman Armenian Population?!

Of course not, mind you that there is “NOT” even one evidence, or document that proves the allegation of “Armenian Treachery” that you were trying to imply in your letter. There is not even one trial of ANY Armenian for the charge of “Treachery,” and even if there was (hypothetically) that couldn’t be an excuse for the Ottoman State to exterminate the “Whole” Armenian population of the Empire, or even to exile them. Sorry, that does not “Justify” Genocide.


Although one can’t be surprised of these Turkish Allegations, because the whole world had recently witnessed the Turkish standards of “treachery”, when in May 2005 the Minster of “Justice” had branded Turkish academics who wanted to hold a conference about the Armenians as “traitors” and accused them of “Stabbing the Nation in the back” . And as one of the Turkish columnists Hasan Cemal, had describe it in his column in the Turkish newspaper “Millet” by saying :

“… It is not easy to find any other country where, as in , it is this easy to produce traitors.” [8]

You said: “If you fight against your own state, you deserve to die. It is a universal law anywhere in the world.”

Dr. Laciner, allow me to say that you are wrong. Not only because we didn’t fight against our state but some of us did defend themselves, not only because that there was no trial or conviction of any Armenian with the charge of treachery; you are wrong because only a genocidal State would exterminate a whole ethnic population for (if there is any) the resistance of some of the members of this group. Even if Armenians fought for their independence (which is something that didn’t happen), it is the “Natural” right of every occupied people to have their independence.

Excuse me, but this is not a universal reaction as you stated, and nothing can “Justify” genocide. Irish people, for example, are still fighting for their independence for 700 years now. Did the British government adopt a Genocide policy against the “Whole” Irish population?!


What about the Chechens who are still fighting against Russia for 400 years with simple weapons, and the power balance is not in their favor at all, they are afflicting huge losses on the Russian army. Did ever try to deport or exterminate them?!


Genocide Can Never be Justified!!



Regards,


Maral Der Ohanesian




Notes of Maral's Letter:


[1] Ali Fuad Erden, Birinci Dünya Harbinde Suriye Hatralar (Syrian memoirs of World War I), vol. 1. Istanbul , 1954, p. 122.

[2] Dr. Ahmet Kuyas of Galatasaray University , in an interview with Turkish journalist Deria Sezak, “Millet” Turkish newspaper, Oct. 3, 2005.

[3] David Marshall Lang and Christopher Walker, The Armenians: Report 32, Minority Rights Group, 1998); Christopher J. Walker, “: The Survival of a Nation,” London , 1980.
[4] Deborah Dwork and Robert Jan van Pelt, “The Holocaust: A History” ( New York : W.W. Norton & Co., 2002), p. 38.

[5] German Foreign Ministry Archives, A.A. Türkei 183/40, A25749, September 18, 1916 report, p. 25. This source contains Ambassador Metternich's reference.

[6] Joseph Pomiankowski, Der Zusammenbruch des Ottomanischen Reiches (The collapse of the Ottoman Empire ). 1928.

[7] Jay Winter and Blaine Baggett. “The Great War and the Shaping of the 20th Century.” New York and London : Penguin Studio, 1996.

[8] Hasan Cemal, “Millet” Turkish newspaper Sept. 28, 2005.


2 November 2005

Maral's Article Aslo Found here



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Laciner's Response to Der Ohanesian's

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Dear Maral,

You claim that JTW published a letter with a fake name in our comment page, and you name it as ‘serious error’. I do not share your opinion. JTW has all the rights to decide whether to publish or not a letter. We publish all the letters we receive from Turkish, Armenian or any others in our pages. Only those which include insults and strong language are excluded. Second, we know who Hold Water is. He kindly asked us not to mention his original name due to the threats from Armenian radicals. And we find it a reasonable demand. The Armenian radicals threaten our writers too. Some of the letters say that they will kill or harm our writers. As you know very well we experienced in the past that many Turkish diplomats, journalists and academicians were attacked, and even killed by the Armenian extremists. Even the foreigners were assaulted by the Armenian groups. Prof. Shaw’s house in the was fired, and Prof. McCarthy was attacked by the Armenian groups. The problem is that many Armenians cannot bear to listen different opinions. If any Armenian or any other readers ask us to hide their real names, we may help them too. Apart from the nick name usage, the important thing is what Hold Water writes. We should not focus on the individuals but the context. I do not know you for instance. I do not know your real name is Maral or not, and this is not my problem. What is important is what you write. Normally JTW does not like to publish letters or articles with nick names, yet when we need to protect the people, we have to do so.

Agreement

You wrote that “I thought that we had an agreement that this dialog is a one-on-one dialog between you, Dr. Laciner, the Editor in Chief of the JTW, and this ordinary Armenian girl” and you accuse us of breaking ‘our agreement’ by posting a letter to JTW pages. First, JTW is a newspaper, and I cannot make any agreement with anybody to limit the JTW publication. Our ‘agreement’ is not an obstacle to publish other comments. JTW not only publish the letters which criticize your ideas, but it publishes the pro-letters too. We published Armenian letters which support you and criticize JTW and me. We, in principle publish any letter as far as it contributes solution and includes valuable views. Yes we may publish even Micky Mouse’s letters, if his/her letters says something serious about Armenian Issue or any others issues.


You say that you do not want respond H. Water’s comments and you wrote “I don't wish to respond to someone who is too cowardly to disclose his/her/its real name. For all you know, he/she/it could be a criminal or an ex-convict or even a wanted terrorist”. I am sorry but I do not remember any anti-Armenian Turkish terrorist name but I can call many Armenian terrorists. No Armenian was harmed by any Turkish ‘terrorists’ for the decades, but more than 40 Turkish diplomats were murdered by ASALA and other Armenian terrorists. Armenian terrorists put bombs to civilian airports in Paris , Ankara , London and many other cities. So, you can be sure that H. Water is not a terrorist but someone who is afraid of Armenian fanatics and terrorists. We did not post his letter to urge you to give a response. Off course you do not have to give a reply to him. He has no link with JTW or anyone from our staff. He sent a letter and we publish it, as we publish many Armenian letters in our pages.


I understand that H. Water’s letter made you nervous and angry. You label his letter ‘offensive and non-respectful’. I do not understand which part of the letter made you so nervous. As a matter of fact that I receive everyday more aggressive and more non-respectful letters. Even an Armenian journalist called me ‘dishonorable man’ because we had different opinions. Most of the Armenian letters sent me include very strong language and they insult me, my nationality, my family etc. I have replied almost all them and I told them that they should understand that I do not hate the Armenians. I work to establish a real dialogue between Turkish and Armenian peoples because they need each other. Whether they understand or not is not important, I have great hopes, and I know there are some Armenians there who will appreciate my goodwill and works in future.

You wrote again “What did surprise me the most is how did you allow this interference in our dialog?” Plase do not forget that our diolgue is not a personal dialogue. I do not know you and you do not know me personally. This is an open dialogue and I have no problem with interferences from Armenian or Turkish side. If the people send letters on your or on my opinion it means that we reach our aim. You are not happy with the following words of H. Water letter: “Dr. Laciner has done a fine job of responding, but some of these claims called for more specific scrutiny.” I do not understand what disturb you in these words. He supports my arguments like many other letters we receive. Not only me, buy you also receive significant support and encouragement. For instance Edward Sarafian sent to JTW too the letter sent to you. Sarafian in his letter says “Voghch ellas. Vartzket gadar. Excellent Response. Keep up the good work.” Not only Sarafian but also other Armenian agree with you and we try to publish their letters too. If you send a letter to a newspaper with more than 15.000 readers every day, you naturally receive pro and con letters. Don’t take this as offense.

Response to Your ‘PART TWO of Letter 3’ [ 4 part ii]

First of all you and many Armenians name the Istanbul Government, ‘Turkish Government’. Off course the dominant ethnic group was the Turks, but the Istanbul Government at that time was an Ottoman Government. Even some of the Armenian books use ‘’ instead of ‘the Ottoman Empire ’. Please remember was established in 1923. Not only you, but the well-kown Armenian ‘historians’ and experts also make this mistake. Atom Egoyan for instance used Turkish Republic ’s flag in his Ararat film instead of the Ottoman Empire flag. I do not try to escape any responsibility for the Ottoman past. However we first should use the concepts properly.

I understand you accept that there was at least 5 reasons for the Armenian casualties, but you argue the Ottoman Government and Ittihat ve Terakki was main responsible for all these reasons, including the bad weather.

1-Bad Administration: You blamed the Government for bad administration. Of course the government was responsible for the bad administration and even the Turkish people suffered a lot from Ittihat’s bad administration. The Ottoman State lost great territories under the Ittihat. They were not democratic and not gifted. Most of the Turkish people do not like the Ittihat Terakki members. Even during the First World War the majority of the Turkish people did not support this party. They were guilthy for bad administration, but not for a genocide or a massacre. They were patriotic people and they were trying to protect their peoples and country. The problem is that they failed.

2-Deportation/Relocation: I name the 1915 Campaign as ‘re-location’, not ‘deportation’ because you cannot deport your citizens to your territories. The word ‘deportation’ is described by the Cambridge Dictionary as “ forcing (a person) to leave a country because they have no legal right to be there or because they have broken the law”. The Ottoman Government did not deport them from the Ottoman territories. They were re-settled to another Ottoman territory, and other southern Ottoman provinces. The relocated Armenians were not illegal. The Government took an administrative measurement to protect its armies against the Russian-Armenian attacks. The similar measurements took by the during the Second World War and many Japanese Americans from the Western coasts of the were forced to settle near the Mississippi river . If you look at the Relocation (tehcir) Law, the Ottoman Governors and other officials had to protect the Armenians in the campaign. Armenian had be helped in selling their properties. In fact the Armenians did not have to sell their properties if they wanted. According to the Tehcir Law, the Armenians were free to return their hometowns when the war conditions ended. It was the Ottoman Governers’ duty to buy train tickets. The Ottoman Governers in the southern provinces had to find jobs and homes for the new comers. The Ottoman Army had the duty to protect the Ottoman Armenians on the journey. The Tehcir Law was a perfect legal document and implemented in some provinces fully. The problem was that the Government had no full control over the Ottoman territories. The army was in a bloody war against the French, British, Russians and Greeks in many fronts. Some parts of the country was under occupation and it was really a formidable job to organize such a relocation campaign. Therefore I accuse the Government for their failure. They caused great tragedies for the Turkish and Armenian peoples. But no one could name this failure as a ‘genocide’. Many Ottoman civil servants and officers were judged and sentenced after the relocation campaign for their failure and ignorance.


You are right, “there was neither preparation, nor organization to shelter the hundreds of thousands of the deportees” in many provinces. The Government asked the impossible jobs from the Governors. But this is a typical bad administration. It is unfortunate that the laws are better than the implementation in many countries. There is no perfect government and the politicians just promise what they cannot do. It is the same politicians who promised Turkish people a stable and secure country. But millions of Turkish citizens were killed or wounded during the First World War.

I cannot agree with Dr. Ahmet Kuyas. There are many pro-Armenian scholars and journalists in different from Armenia Diaspora Armenians. is a free country and everyone is free to defend anything. Dr. Kuyas opinion is just an opinion, not a historical fact. The Government was in real troubles. Imagine a country that fight the greatest powers of the world in all sides. British, Russian, French, Greek and others attacked you. Arabs and some other minorities were making co-operation with the ‘enemy’. Armenian gangs attacked the civilian Muslim villages. There were more than 200,000 Armenians in the enemy side. The country was in an economic catastrophe, the people, even the soldiers had to eat grass and wild animals because they could not find anything to eat. All men are at the war fronts, and the state organization was simply out of control. The Russians attacked from the East and the Armenian militants attacked from the back of the front. The Ottoman army was between of these two. The Istanbul Government had to take some measures. They had two options: destroy all the Armenian villages or relocate the Armenian villages far away from the war theatre. They did not have time to estimate whether they had enough power to relocate hundreds of thousands people. They had no time, and it was an emergency situation. They had do something and they decided to relocate the Armenians near the war theatre. If there was a German State in Anatolia at that time, what they would had chosen is not a secret. The German generals advised the Ottoman Government to destroy all the Armenians. Many Armenians were killed in communal clashes and by other reasons. However most of them safely immigrated from the war region. Some of them, not many, returned to their hometown after the war. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk told an American newspaper that hundreds of thousands Armenians had the chance to return their hometowns, but they supported the French occupation forces after the First World war and they fought against the Turkish Salvation Armies. With the French armies, they tortured or killed many Muslims. Ataturk said “after such a war, none of them dared to return to their towns”. However many Armenians returned to Istanbul , when they found dangerous to return to the small towns. Hundreds of thousands immigrated to , , island, Caucasian, Europe and North America . That is why there are strong diasporas in these countries.

3-War Circumstances: You again accuse the government for the war circumstances. But please please it was First World War. Almost all nations were in the war. War is not a good thing. But a reality. And Istanbul Government was one of the latest one who joined the war. If you blame the Ottoman Government for joining the war, you should blame the Russians, British, French and Greeks too. They came to Anatolia . They occupied the Turkish homeland. The Ottoman State ’s war was in fact a resistance war. And the Armenians. More than 200,000 Armenians joined the allies and helped the occupation. They occupied the Van province and cleaned the way for Russian occupation. The Tashnaks and other militant groups proudly tell the ‘heroic’ stories about how they massacred the Turkish and Kurdish villagers, agas and civil servants during the First World War. You should decide whether the Armenians were innocent people with no arm or ‘heroic warriors’. If they were in war against their own government, you cannot name the conflicts as ‘genocide’ or ‘massacre’. All governments have the rights to surpass the armed riots. If the Armenians lived in and if they behaved as they did during the First World War, the picture would be totally different. There would be no Armenian diaspora, but Armenian graves everywhere.

4- Communal Clashes: You wrote “This was not the case as I said earlier, because… all able bodied men were recruited in the war. Who is then fighting in these massive so-called communal clashes?!” The communal clashes were between Armenian Kurdish villages. Actually Armenian gangs mainly targeted the Kurdish villages. Tashnak documents clearly shows how the Kurdish villages were ‘cleared’ by the Armenian attacks. And after the First World War when the Armenians joined the occupying French soldiers in the south eastern provinces in particular, the Turkish and Kurdish people organized resistance groups. Many Turkish and Kurdish wanted to take revenge of their parents and children. There was a real problems between Armenian Kurdish villages in some provinces and this caused great clashes. Most of the Kurdish men were at home during the war. And the war did last four years not forever. Even in Central Anatolian provinces the people were really angry about the Armenian and Greek co-operation with the occupying armies and they attacked the Armenians and Greek districts in some towns. But the real problem was the looters. Some illegal criminals and gangs groups attacked the Armenian districts and houses by abusing the tension between the communities. Most of the Armenians were protected by their Muslim neighbors from such attacks. These gangs not only attacked the Armenians but also the Muslim families. My grandma clearly calls that period, and she said many Turkish were also murdered by these criminals and the Government could do nothing. Even some of the gendarme officers joined the gangs in order to loot the wealthy people. These officers were captured and sentenced.

5- Riot: ‘Milleti Sadika’ is not a 5 century-old concept. The concept was used first time during the 19th century. Because all the minorities rioted against the Istanbul but the Armenians remained loyal to Istanbul . The relations between Armenians and Turkish people were perfect for the centuries. Fatih Sultan Mehmet invited all the Armenians to Istanbul ( Constantinople ) and the Armenian Istanbul Patric was under the Sultan’s personal protection. However the balances were change with the Russian encouragement. aimed to establish a Christian region between and the Ottoman State . They first tried to clean the Muslim population in the Caucasus and then granted citizenship to the Ottoman Armenians. Most of the Ottoman Armenians, apart from the Ottoman citizenship, became citizens before the First World War.

3 March 1878 was turning point in Armenians’ loyalty to the Ottomans. After the Russian-Ottoman War the Russian armies came to very close to capital Istanbul . The Armenian Patriarch Narses saw the event as a great opportunity to make pressure over the Istanbul Government. The Patriarch in fact aimed a separate Armenian state. The Armenian Patriarch went to the Russian Emperor Nikola’s tent and gave him the Armenian demands list. Thus the Russians establish a great influence over the Ottoman Armenian citizens. The Berlin Agreement confirmed the situation. The Armenians were used as a Trojan Horse during this years. Nevertheless the middle class Armenians continued their support to Istanbul Government. The Armenian nationalist-terrorist organizations Tashnak and Hinchaks were established abroad to establish an Armenian state on the Ottoman territories. One of them was established in and the other was established in . The young Armenian students were encouraged to organize separatist movements against the Ottomans. The strange thing is that none of the founders of these organizations had seen the Ottoman territories before. The American and other missionary schools also encouraged the Armenian separatism in the Eastern provinces. Many schools and churches were used as arsenal. The American schools and Russian agents gave military training to the Armenian youth in the eastern provinces. The Armenian terrorists attacked the Ottoman Bank in Istanbul . They also made bomb attack to the head of the Ottoman State , Abdulhamid II. Interestingly the first modern terrorist examples given by the Armenian nationalist groups. They kidnapped the people, they bombed the civilian targets, they killed to create a terror environment. The number of Armenians killed by the Armenian groups was higher than the number of Turkish people killed by the Armenians at the beginning. The nationalist fanatics were trying to change the Armenian public opinion about a possible uprising against the Istanbul . They first killed the pro-Ottoman Armenians. Then they made provocative attacks to the Muslim villages. The Tashnaks particularly attacked the Kurdish and Turkish villages which had friendly relations with the Armenian villages. Under these circumstances the concept of the ‘millet-i sadika’ (loyal nation) was sabotaged by the armed Armenian extremists. Of course there were loyal Armenians too. Armenians in Istanbul and in many other Western provinces mainly did not join the uprisings. The Armenian terrorists were mostly from abroad, not Ottoman citizens. Even many Armenians joined the Ottoman Army in Canakkale (Dardanel Operation) against the British and French occupying armies in 1915. Some of the British and French military ships were destroyed by the Ottoman Armenian officers. That’s why not all of the Armenian population was included to the Relocation Campaign.

However the picture in the east was quite different. The Armenians established armies in Van. If you like to see the armed pictures of the Armenian rioters and gangs please see Hratch Dasnabedian’s book: “History of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Dashnaktsutiun, 1890-1924, Milan, , OEMME Edizioni, 1989). Dasnabedian’s book clearly shows how the Armenians were loyal to Ottoman State ( ! ) .

You give reference from Prof. Dr. Turkkaya Ataov in your letter to prove how Armenians were loyal. So you trust to distinguished Prof. Ataov’s studies. He revelaed last week important Armenians documents. The documents, say Professor Ataov, prove that up to 200,000 Armenians fought with allied troops against the Otoman Army during the

First World War. Noting the extremely high numbers of Armenian soldiers admitted to in these documents, Professor Ataov says "200,000 is a serious number. It is atleast 65 thousand more than the American soldiers found in Iraq today."

It is realy impossible to say that the Armenians were not a threat to Otoman security in the Eastern provinces. The Armenian population in the Eastern provinces was a real and close therat during the First World War. After the War the Armenians joined the occupying forces. There is no need to speak about their so-called loyalty. The Otoman newspapers and archives are full of the proofs. The problem is you name all the Turkish historians and experts “Genocide deniers” or “revisionists” and you label the Ottoman and Turkish documents “lies”. No one blames the whole Ottoman Armenians. But we know that a significant size of the Armenian population were at the same time Russian citizens. Hundreds of thousands joined the Russian or French armies against the Ottoman army. The loyal Armenians had no difficulty in living with the Turkish people. More than 100,000 Armenians have lived in Istanbul since the First World War and none of them were injured by their neighbors. Today the number of the Armenians in Istanbul is higher than 100,000. It is impossible for the Turks to live in , but Istanbul is still a safe home for the Armenians. Even about 50,000 Armenians from come to Istanbul to work.

You wrote “the whole world had recently witnessed the Turkish standards of “treachery”, when in May 2005 the Minister of “Justice” had branded Turkish academics who wanted to hold a conference about the Armenians as “traitors” and accused them of “Stabbing the Nation in the back” .

I do not share Mr. Cicek’s words about the conference, but it should be accepted that is a mature democracy where the academicians can organize a conference though the Minister of Justice brand them “traitors”. is a democracy and even the ministers cannot prevent the expression of different ideas. The conference was a fully pro-Armenian one, and people and media attended the conference, and no one was injured or sentenced. Most of the participants were lecturer from State universities and none of them lost their job. By the way Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan clearly declared that he did not agree with the Minister of Justice. He said “all ideas have right to be discussed in ”. It is really difficult to see such a picture in or in Armenian diaspora. Even the Turkish Armenians cannot give lecture in or in . When a Turkish professor does not name the 1915 events as ‘genocide’, attempt to arrest him. It is almost impossible to defend Turkish approach in many countries where Armenian diaspora is so strong. They manipulate the Western governments, or they directly threaten the Turkish authors and experts.

Of course “Genocide Can Never be Justified”, and the Armenians should not commit genocide against history by fabricating a past based on emotions, biases and hate.

Sedat Laciner.

2 November 2005

Dr. Laciner's Article also found here

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Armenian Letters 4: Part I

The Armenian Population Of The Ottoman Empire

Maral Der Ohanesian's Response To Dr. Laciner

- Dear Editor,

I didn’t want to leave out some important details, therefore I will reply your message in separate parts. And this is the first part. According to the Oxford Dictionary, to deny is “to say that something is not true.” So when you say that there is no Armenian Genocide, you are denying it. I understand why you might be sensitive about this word, since English is not your first language. It’s not mine either. But we will have a little talk about "Genocide Denial" later , in the coming parts.

Although it’s not just what “Armenians Claim” but the International Holocaust and Genocide Scholars and specialists as well as human rights organizations all over the world agree that the Armenian Genocide is a crime against humanity and recognize it as the First Genocide of the 20th Century. Turkey is still trying, with the aid of some local and Western revisionists, to revise the facts and convince Turks and others that “there was no Genocide”.

As the Turkish revisionist campaign, which is the main fist of the denial, claims that Armenian genocide was a "war propaganda," I will ONLY use Ottoman and pro-Ottoman (allies of the Ottoman Empire at the time) archival documents to show you the reality. Indeed you will deny for a long time that the Armenian genocide did not happen, because it is what you were raised to believe in. But I hope these facts will make you to rethink over.

Now, before we talk a little bit about the Ottoman statistics you have provided, and start the numbers’ game, let’s see what a German (Ottoman ally) high ranking officer recorded in his account about this issue:The German chief of staff of the Ottoman Third Army, Colonel Felix Guse, complained that "the Turks knew only poorly their country, on top of that, the possibility of getting reliable statistical figures was out of the question.” [Felix Guse, Die Kaukasusfront im Weltkrieg, Liebzig: Koehler und Amelang,1940, p. 83].

Ottoman Records:

The First Census, 1830’s Census: You wrote: “According to the census documents 2,600,000 were Muslim men, and 1,400,000 were Jews and Christians. The number of Christians in Anatolia was about 400,000 in 1830.”

While the Ottomans had records of populations prior to the 1830s, it was only in 1831 that they founded the “Office of Population Registers Fund” (Ceride-i Nüfus Nezareti). To draw more accurate data, the Office decentralized itself in 1839; registrars inspectors and population officials were appointed to the provinces and smaller administrative districts.

The problem with such records was that instead of presenting a total count of population, they were rather based on what is known as “head of household,” male family members, ages, occupation, and property. And the evidence to that, you can find in your own quote, and I underlined that for you, “Men.” This is why the 1830’s Census is inaccurate and unreliable.

Then you didn’t mention that in the Census of 1844 the Ottomans recorded 2.4 million Armenians within the Ottoman Empire. In the Census of 1867, this number was maintained. Whether or not it was due to a political motive, that no Armenian population growth was registered for a period of 23 years, is unknown.The “Council of States” was later founded in 1867 and took the charge of drawing population tables, thus increasing the precision of population records. The evolution progressed from the new measures introduced in 1874, leading in 1881/1882 to the establishment of a “General Population Administration” which was attached to the Ministry of Interior thus politicizing the population counts.

Consequently , the first record of the General Population Administration, under the guidance of Sultan Abdul Hamid, was lower than half the figures of 1881/1882. While the Ottoman Empire in the 1877-78 lost Batum, Kars and Ardahan, the population of Armenian statistics for those regions would have influenced the “losses” of population, but can not account for the other million or more Armenians that were just “missing” in the records of 1881/1882 during the reign of Abdul Hamid, due to political reasons. Abdul Hamid was worried that Armenians might seek autonomy under the Treaty of Berlin (1878).

The Turkish author Kâz?m Kadri for instance writes: “During the reign of Abdul Hamid we lowered the population figures of the Armenians.…” He adds: “By the order of Abdul Hamid the number of the Armenians deliberately had been put in low figures.” [ Hüseyin Kâz?m Kadri, Balkanlardan Hicaza: Imparatorlugun Tasfiyesi. 10 Temmuz Inkilâb? ve Netayici, Istanbul: P?nar, 1992. Originaly published in Ottoman Turkish in 1920 in Istanbul by Islam and Askeri Publishers. p. 126, 133; in the original Ottoman version, p. 116, 123].

Turkish historian Dr. Secil Akgun declared : “The Ottomans do not have a definite number. That is, we have in our hands contradictory numbers regarding the Armenian population within the borders of the Ottoman Empire. I would think that Basmac?yan gives the most accurate number. This is to be between 2 and 3 million.” [In an Interview published in the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet, April 27, 1987]

Fa'iz El-Ghusein the Kaimakam of Kharpout wrote in his book, that according to the Ottoman official statistics there were about 1,9 million Armenian's in the Ottoman Empire. [Martyred Armenia by Fa'iz El-Ghusein, Bombay, 1916]

You referred to Talat Pasha’s Officially stated numbers: “According to Talat Pasha’s documents the Armenian population in Anatolia was 1,256,403. Talat Pasha says the number reduced to about 400,000 after the 1915 relocation campaign.”

Earlier this year, Talat Pasha’s Memoir was discovered in Turkey by one of his descendants. The memoir of Talat Pasha shows another figure of the Armenian Deportees: 924,000. [The guilty one is Talat Pasha, Zaman Daily Newspaper, May 5, 2005, by Mehmet Kamis].

Getting back to your figures, I will have to say, that your prejudgment on the issue, prevented you from seeing the contradictions and inaccuracies.

Quoting Dr. Stanford Shaw you wrote: “there were 12.585.950 Muslims, 1.139.053 Armenians in 1890. Shaw documents that the number of Muslims increased to 14.111.945 in 1897 and the Armenian population increased to 1.162.853. In 1906 the population of Muslims was 15.518.478, and the population of Armenians was 1.140.563. In 1914 Muslim Ottoman population reached to 15.044.846 and the Armenian population was 1.229.007.”

According to Dr. Stanford Shaw, we see that the Armenian population is declining drastically, and you missed the fact that there was no official census in 1914, but he might have “guessed” his numbers based on the records of 1905. And even Turkish and pro-Turkish sources (German archives) agree that the Ottoman records are unreliable, and contradicted.

In addition to that, and if we compare the “Last Figure” you provided to the “Total” Muslim population (13,339,000) and the total Armenian population (1,234,671) , with the well known fact of 25–30 million population of the Ottoman Empire, that would be a huge difference!

Dr. Shaw (UCLA) cannot be a reliable source because, according to The Middle East Studies Association Published Bulletins, Directory of American scholars and the Ottoman Studies Directory, he received money twice from the Institute of Turkish Studies in Washington D.C., which was established by a $3 million seed money from the Turkish government. The Institute's purpose is to counter Armenian activity at the "academic level" and as a pro-Turkey lobbying group. Dr. Shaw received a second “monetary grant” from the “American Research Institute in Turkey.” His research co-author is his “Turkish Wife,” Ezel Kural Shaw.

Therefore, I hope that in the future, you avoid using him as a source as he has been financed by Turkey to cast doubt on the Armenian Genocide, yet he didn’t succeed, because of his weak arguments and ill information.

Armenian Patriarchate Records:

The Armenian Patriarchate’s figure of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire, based on the published archival baptism and death certificates in 1913, is 1,914,620, which presents “precision” to the last digit. Mind you that those records were published in 1913, and no Ottoman official had rejected them at the time. [Raymond H. Kevorkian and Paul B. Paboudjian, Les Arméniens dans l'Empire Ottoman à la veille du génocide, Ed. ARHIS, Paris, 1992].

Western Records:

I can provide you more confirmation Armenian Patriarchate’s numbers from Western records. For example, German official records represent the Armenian population within the Empire to be 1.9 to 2 million. [An example of such a figure was provided in a report, A.A. Türkei 183/44. A27493, October 4, 1916 (German archives)].And most Western scholars believe the totality of the Armenian population within the Empire prior to 1915 to be between 1.8 and 2.1 million.

As for the Number of Armenian Victims:

In March of 1919, the then Ottoman Interior Minister relying on statistical data which the staff of the ministry had been compiling during the previous two months, publicly declared that "during the wartime deportations some 800,000 Armenians were killed.” [Alemdar (Turkish newspaper in Istanbul), March 15, 1919. Takvimi Vekâyi No. 3909, July 21, 1920, pp. 3, 4. The minister in question was Cemal]. And [ This document was republished in 1983 by the Turkish Prime Minstary ].

Excluded from this figure are the Armenian conscripts who, in the wake of their conscription, were liquidated in stages by fellow Turkish soldiers, and countless children, young girls, and brides who were forcibly Islamised and absorbed into the mainstream of the Turkish national entity.

While the official figures were of 800,000 killed, there were many unofficial numbers presented during the war by some Ottoman authorities. Talat Pasha, for instance, presented the figure of 300,000, but there are no indications as to how those figures were obtained. This figure is currently the one used by Turkish government officials. So the contradiction and unreliability is obvious.

If one discounts French and British sources, identified as they were with the enemy camp (as you mentioned), the available German and Austro-Hungarian sources (who were the Ottoman Empire’s Allies in the WWI and had “full access” to all areas, and Germany is still the strongest supporter of Turkey joining the EU) involving civilian and military officials of all ranks, and serving as wartime allies of Turkey, supply much more inclusive figures. According to these sources, the number of victims of the Armenian genocide ranges between 1.2 and 1.5 million. For example:

**According to German Interim Ambassador to Turkey, Radowitz, 1.5 million Armenians died and 425,000 survived. [A.A. Türkei 183/44. A27493, October 4, 1916 report].

**The German parliamentarian, Foreign Office Intelligence Director, and later Cabinet minister, Erzberger, estimated 1.5 million victims. [A.A. Türkei 183/42, A13959, May 27, 1916 report].

**The German Major Endres, serving in the Turkish army, estimated that "1.2 million Armenians perished in Turkey during the war." [Die Türkei. Munich: C.H. Beck, 1918, p. 161].

**The Austrian Foreign Ministry Archives 12 Türkei/380, ZI.17/pol. Austria-Hungary's Adrianople (Edirne) consul Dr. Nadamlenzki reported that from the entire realm of the Ottoman Empire, including its European part, by October 29, 1915 "already 1.5 million Armenians were deported." [12 Türkei/463, Z.94/P].

And you wrote: “So there was only 500,000 Armenians alive at that time. Now the total population of Armenians about 8-9 million. So the Armenian population increased 16-18 times in 90 years. Is it logical?”

The Jewish victims of the Holocaust were 6,000,000. The Jewish population all around the world in 1990, (after 45 years of the Holocaust) was 14.5 million.

And from your numbers, that Turkey lost 5 million out of 13 million 90 years ago, and now Turkey has a population of 70 million.

In addition to that, you forget to consider the fact that of 8-10 million Armenians all over the world, you need to exclude the 2.5 million living in the Republic of Armenia, and the 3 million Armenians who are living in Russia still, most of those were not originally from the Ottoman Empire.

To wrap up this numbers issue, let me bring your attention to the fact that, neither the population nor the victims figures, affect the fact of the Genocide. The Genocide Law, doesn’t consider the higher number of victims Genocide, and the lower not. In 1995 Srebrenica Massacres was recognized as a Genocide, although only 8,000 people lost their lives because of it.

Now, before I end this message let me comment on one small detail you mentioned.Germany’s Recognition of the Armenian Genocide, and calling on Turkey to do the same, was not because Germany is the only Genocidal country. That is totally baseless argument, why ?!

If you try to search in Human Rights Organizations , and Genocide Scholar’s Associations documents or websites, you’ll see that the 20th century is in fact, the century of Genocide. Not solely the Holocaust or the Armenian Genocide. There are the many other Genocides. For example:

*Cambodia Genocide (By the Khmer Rouge) 1975-79

*The Genocide in Rwanda 1994

*The Bosnian Genocide ( Srebrenica 1995)

*The Genocide in Kosovo

*And the ongoing Genocide in Darfur .

So it’s not because Germany felt lonely and wanted a pal in bearing the Genocide accusation (as you suggested) . And Germany had cleared it’s conscience long time ago from the Holocaust crimes, repented and compensated the victims’ families. And today Germany is one of the “leading” countries in the European Block.

The “real” reason of Germany’s recognition of the Armenian Genocide was the fact that the “German Official Archive” is very generous with documentation form the WWI where the Germans were Ottoman Empire allies and had officers of all ranks who witnessed the massacres and atrocities against the Armenians “First Hand.”

Regards,

Maral Der Ohanesian

---------------------------

Dr. Sedat LACINER's FOURTH LETTER to Maral Der OHANESIAN

--------------------------

According to the Oxford Dictionary, to deny is “to say that something is not true.” So when you say that there is no Armenian Genocide, you are denying it. I understand why you might be sensitive about this word, since English is not your first language. It’s not mine either. But we will have a little talk about "Genocide Denial" later , in the coming parts.

Although it’s not just what “Armenians Claim” but the International Holocaust and Genocide Scholars and specialists as well as human rights organizations all over the world agree that the Armenian Genocide is a crime against humanity and recognize it as the First Genocide of the 20th Century. Turkey is still trying, with the aid of some local and Western revisionists, to revise the facts and convince Turks and others that “there was no Genocide”.

‘DENY’ AND NATIONAL HONOR

It is true ‘deny’ means “disown; to reject as false; to declare a statement etc. to be untrue.”(Collins, 1993). However the Armenians do not use the word ‘deny’ to describe a fact but to accuse a nation wholly. And, the word ‘deny’ is a dirty word due to the Jewish Genocide. Being denier is one of the most horrible things in the modern age. When Armenians use the word ‘deny’ they mean that the Turks are like the Nazis. And this is not a honest plan. Turks do not accept the Armenian allegations because they are honored people and they believed that they have a past that they can proud with it. Many Armenians cannot understand why the Turkish people do not accept their arguments, because they have unchangeable assumptions about the Turkish people. They perceive the Turk like a monster. The Church and political parties in the Diaspora rewrote the history about the Turks. According to this history Turks may do anything bad to the Armenians and against humanity. Turks are infidel, Turks are dirty and they are thirst to blood. They needed to create enemy to unite the Armenians in the US, Canada, Europe and other countries, and the Ottoman years provided a great opportunity.

You are blaming the Turkish approach and the Western supports as revisionist campaign. This is not fair. Armenian accusations are ‘fact’, Turkish defense is “a revisionist campaign”. It is basic principles of the law that one who has a accusations he/she has to prove it. So Armenians have to prove what they are claiming instead of just accusing a nation and country.

TURKS DO NOT THINK ON THE PAST AND ARMENIANS?

You argue “you were raised to believe in. But I hope these facts will make you to rethink over.” Personally I made significant part of my education in the United Kingdom. But not only me but the Turks know many things about the Armenian tragedy. There has been a lively debate on Turkish-Armenian relations for the years in Turkey. There are Armenians in many Turkish cities. In Istanbul alone there are more than 100,000 Armenians. There are many Armenian churches and communities in many Turkish towns including in the city I live now. It is very easy to find translated pro-Armenian books in Turkish bookshops. Even the pro-Armenian researchers join the lively debates on Turkish national televisions. Pro-Armenian historians can continue their jobs in Turkish state and private universities. There three Armenian weekly newspaper. All have Armenian language pages. They may establish radio or tv station in Armenian language and as far as I know Hrant Dink plans to establish one in Istanbul. I can argue that the environment about the Armenian-Turkish relations in Turkey is more free than the environment in US, France or in Armenia. In Diaspora, the Armenians refuse to listen to the pro-Turkish ideas. They just accuse you of being denier. We cannot construct a dialogue and I feel very bad when I try to speak with an Armenian. He/she insults you, and does not allow saying anything. Even the Turkey Armenians cannot establish a dialogue with the diaspora Armenians. When Hrant Dink and Ethem Mahcupyan leading Turkey Armenians joined a conference in Italy and France last year they were insulted and even attacked by the Diaspora Armenians. You remember the latest Istanbul Armenian Conference. Even the Justice Minister of Turkey could not prevent the conference and all pro-Armenian authors and researchers made their speech at the heart of Turkey. It can be said that no Armenian dare to organize such a meeting in California, Lyon or Yerevan. Because all of us know that such an attempt could result in a bloody picture.

GERMANS AND GENOCIDE

Recently the Armenian historians have focused on the German ‘documents’ (letters etc.). They argue that “the Germans were the ally of the Ottoman Empire, so they would not lie”. The problem with the Germans is that they look for a friend. The world has equalized the term of genocide with Germany due to the Hitler memories. The Genocide maker image has cost a lot to Germany. That is why the Germans have tried to find new genocides, so they could show all the peoples that they are not the alone. The Bosnian Genocide helped them a lot. Now the world knows that the Germans are not alone. But the Armenian allegations will make more contribution to the German attempts. Second point is that the all German letters and documents do not prove genocide. During the Second World War, the world was divided into religion groups, and the journalists, politicians and peoples perceived the events according to their faith. Even if they are in the different military blocks, they supported those who shared their religion. If you make a search in The New York Times or The Washington Post archives you see the titles like “The Muslim Sultan Massacres the Christian Armenians”. Sometimes they do not use the name of ethnic group and just say “Muslims Torture the Christians”. I mean the Christians (and possibly the Muslims) saw the disputes through a religious approach. For a good German Christian, the Turks were infidels and deserved anything bad. “Turks were the scourge of the God” for the ‘good German, American or British Christians. The Protestants Catholics and Orthodox in the US or in Europe shared this idea. What I am trying to say that the Germans were Turks’ ally, yet they never fully supported the Turkish people in all areas and they saw the ethnic problems in Turkey as a religious clashes.

OTTOMAN ARCHIVES

You wrote “The problem with such (Ottoman) records was that instead of presenting a total count of population, they were rather based on what is known as “head of household,” male family members, ages, occupation, and property. And the evidence to that, you can find in your own quote, and I underlined that for you, “Men.” This is why the 1830’s Census is inaccurate and unreliable.” I am sorry yet all who know anything know that almost all censuses in the 19th Century in almost all countries count the men. Similarly the election figures are based on male and taxpayer population in Ottoman Empire or in England. I gave the figure not to show the total population but the share of the Muslim and Armenian etc. populations. You claim that the Armenian population in 1844 was about 2.4 million. I have no idea what is your source. In fact even the original documents of the 1844 Census has not been found yet. And this census could no be completed. So a comparison between 1844 and 1867 could not be healthy. I don’t know what figure you are talking about on, but you should note that the Ottoman Empire was a huge country. The wars with Russians and other countries changed the size and population of the country a lot in couple of decades. The immigrations were also another factor which changed the Ottoman population a lot. I cannot accept your figures at this point, but I know the real share of the Armenian population in the Ottoman total population and 2,4 million is not a realistic one, but we know from the Ottoman archives that the number of Armenian population in 1893 was about 1 million. 1906 statistics show us that the number was not over 1,2 million.

The ?stanbul Government tried its best to find the highest possible Armenian populations because of the tax. If the official Ottoman figures were low the Ottoman Government could not collect the tax she desired. So there is no reason to doubt about the Ottoman figures. However the immigration to Russia, Europe and the United States and the wars/conflicts did not allow any significant increase in Armenian population in the last decades of the Ottoman Empire. And the Istanbul Government was not happy with the decrease in Armenian population. Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamid even complained about the Armenian immigration to the US and urged the US Congress and President to take measures to prevent Armenian immigration to the US because the immigration was harmful for the Ottoman economy.

During the Abdulhamid period, the European and American businessmen dominated the Ottoman economy and they used the Greek and Armenian tradesmen for their businesses in Anatolia. Most of the Armenians took American and European citizenships. In the east Russian encouraged the Armenians to riot. The Russian strategy was to massacre or force to immigrate the Muslim population of Russia to create a homogenous region between Russia and the Ottoman Empire in the Caucasus. Many were massacred and the other Muslims immigrated to the eastern part of Anatolia. Thus the share of the Armenians in the Eastern provinces decreased more. Most of the Armenians in some provinces became Russian citizens. Some Armenians hide their second passports while some of them immigrated to Russia during the 1890s-1918. Armenian sources count these Armenians twice.Particularly in the Abdulhamid period the Ottoman Empire never attempted to show the number of Armenians less than the real fact. In fact it was not possible, because there were thousands of Western missionaries, diplomats and businessmen. The Americans and European missionaries established missionary schools and hospitals for the Armenians in eastern provinces, many of them would be used as arsenal in future. You wrote “Abdul Hamid was worried that Armenians might seek autonomy under the Treaty of Berlin (1878)”. In fact some of the Armenian leaders asked for independence. The problem was that they asked the Russians and the European powers to establish a separate country.

DECLINING ARMENIAN POPULATION

It is understandable that the Armenian population declined slightly or not increased enough in the Ottoman territories during the last decades due to the immigrations and wars. Many Armenian sources openly declare that thousands of Armenians immigrated to Russia, US, Caucasus and Europe. So I cannot see any problem with Shaw’s figures. By the way the was a census study was started in 1905 and it concluded in 1914. Moreover a state does not need every year a census to know its ethnic groups. Taxing, population records and many more text easily showed the population of the Armenians during the Ottoman Empire.

You say Dr. Shaw (UCLA) cannot be a reliable source. Not only Prof. Dr. Shaw but all the historians who are not pro-Armenian are not reliable source for the Armenians. Mc Carthy, Shaw etc. all are liar. The Armenian researchers have dominated the Armenian studies in the United States and in European universities so far. Many US or EU scholars have never listened to the Turkish argument. They have never needed to see Turkish documents. Hundreds of Armenian historians just manipulated the Western scholars and universities. Armenian scholars wrote about the Armenian issue, they then gave references to what they had written before. You say that the Turkish Government donates 3 million dollars to Institute of Turkish Studies in Washington. You give no proof. Anyway, this is not strange for the US. Armenian lobbying institutions spend more than 60 million dollars each year to undermine Turkish interests in the world. In fact the many Armenians devote themselves to ‘destroy’ Turkey and to take revenge. They are obsessively spending money and energy to harm Turkey and Turkish people. Armenia issue is not the only issue in Turkey’s foreign relations and the institute you mentioned above spend very little financial source and time to Armenian issue. In Turkish universities even the history and international relations departments consume very little time for the Armenian issue. So there are couple of scholars in the world who defend Turkey’s arguments in Armenian issue. Even in Turkey there are Armenian lobbying groups. And I think the Armenian lobby groups spend more money to make Armenian propaganda in Turkey than the Turkish Government spends in Turkey.

In brief Armenians spend more money and energy to make Armenian propaganda. They pay the institutes in Europe and the United States. And I believe in Dr. Shaw and his wife’s studies. They are very respectful historians. Their studies are now classics in Turkish-Ottoman studies for many European and American universities.

FIGURES AND FIGURES

You do not accept Ottoman figures. You do not accept any reference which does not confirm pro-Armenian stance. You bring all the pro-Armenian and selected Western documents. We see how the West is impartial about the Turks. They have never been objective and they have always been discriminative regarding the Turkish people. The Ottoman Empire was in war, and you use all the enemy states’ propaganda texts. Please remember British, American, German, Italian, Russian and many other missionaries encouraged the Armenian peoples to riot against their own State. And please remember, Armenians and Turks lived together in Anatolia for the centuries and the Turks never massacred or harmed their Armenian neighbors for the centuries. The Ottoman Sultans, like Fatih, invited all Armenians and Greeks to come and live in Ottoman State. The Ottoman Governments saw the Armenian people as one of the most useful groups for the Ottoman economy and they lived in Istanbul near Ottoman Sultan’s Place. So what changed and the Turks became monsters and the Armenians became victims. I am not expert on Ottoman population. I can refer to population experts or Ottoman archives. If you do not accept these sources and if you insist on your figures what can I do? If the Ottoman State massacred 1.5 million Armenians where are the mass graves? The Ottoman State was in war in many fronts and almost all men population except children and old people were in war, so how the Ottoman State killed 1.5 million people. Please think first, we are talking about 1.5 million (1.500.000) people, more than half of the modern Republic of Armenia.

You say that “countless (Armenian) children, young girls, and brides who were forcibly Islamized and absorbed into the mainstream of the Turkish national entity.” If you accept that many Armenian children were adopted by the Turkish families and many Armenian women were married with the Turkish people you should have realized that the Turkish people cannot be racist. If they are not racist they could not commit genocide, because all genocides are based on racism. There is no Serbian man who adapted a Bosnian orphan child. Do you remember any Nazi SS officer who got married with a Jewish woman. Or imagine the Karabakh War, do you remember any adopted Azeri child by the Armenians, or any Azeri women who got married with Armenian soldier. No, you can’t. Many Azeri children and women were massacred by the Armenian soldiers, but none of the Armenian soldier adopted a Muslim child. All racists think that the lower nations are dirty, and they never want to take their dirty blood to their pure nation. Serbs raped the Bosnian women, killed Bosnian children. Nazi officers similarly killed countless Jewish women and children. They even raped the small children, but they never thought to get marry with them, or to adopt them. If the Turks so hated from the Armenians why they did not kill their countless children and women, but adopted or got married with them. That’s the crucial point: Turkish people know very well that thousands of Armenians were killed or died during the 1915 Relocation Campaign. Me or the majority of the Turkish people do not try to defend the killings or massacres. What we say is that the killings was not genocide. Because we adapted the Armenian children and we got married with the Armenian women. There are very famous singers, actress etc. in Turkey and we have no problem in respecting Armenians in Turkey. What the Turkish people cannot accept is label of genocide committer. The numbers may change according to the British, Armenian or Turkish, but the fact cannot be changed: Turks were not racist and did not commit genocide. And you mention “countless Armenian children and women”, so the Turks did not kill all of them but let countless Armenian children and women to live.

It is true, Turkish, Kurdish and some other immigrants from Russia killed Armenians for personal reasons and interests. Some want money, some attacked for house or garden. Some Kurds took revenge from the Armenians. Armenian Tashnaks attack the Kurdish villages, and the Kurdish gunmen attacked to Armenian villages to take their revenge. It is true, the Ottoman Government was not very good at the organizing such a relocation campaign. Many Turkish historians accept that the Istanbul could not take enough measures to protect the Armenians during the campaign due to the war circumstances. But many Ottoman abusers and many Ottoman officers and governors who neglected their duties were executed by the Ottoman Courts. The Istanbul Government tried to relocate the eastern Armenians to southern provinces of the country and never wanted to destroy the Armenian population. It is possible, some governors or officers personally desired to destroy the Armenians in some territories. However they had not such a power. After the First World War the British tried to captured all accused Ittihat Terakki members and some of these people hide in Armenian houses in Istanbul. Istanbul Armenians continued their life during the relocation campaign. Some of the relocated Armenians returned to Istanbul. Can you imagine a German Jewish who returned to Berlin after the genocide. Turkish people respect the Armenian tragedy, but they also expect the same respect from the Armenians. More than 520.000 Turkish and Kurdish were massacred by the Armenian extremists, and you may find one in the eastern Turkey whose grandpa or grandma massacred by the Armenians during the First World War. The Turks do not speak loudly, they do not accuse openly. They try to forget the past, because they know that if they do not forget, the peace would never come to this region. All sides made mistakes, but Turks did not make genocide mistake.

Sedat Laciner

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JTW7 October 2005

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Response To Armenian Letters 3

JTW Editor's Response to Maral Der Ohanesian

Sedat Laciner

Dear Maral,

First of all I do not deny genocide, because there is no genocide. So we do not search a way (or 7 ways) to deny something which not exist. I simply try to response to the Armenian claims. I try to show that Armenian allegations based on no proof but legends and beliefs. If Armenians claim something, so they have to prove their allegations, not the Turkish side. However the Armenians try to undermine Turkish interests everywhere from to the . Thus and the Turks fell that they have to response, they have to explain the past. That’s why we give statistics, documents etc.

Let me focus on your points step by step:

1. First you accuse me of questioning and minimizing the statistics.

Excuse me but the Armenian researchers do not accept the Ottoman and Turkish documents. They the all Istanbul and other Turkish archives lie. They also do not accept the Istanbul Armenian Church’s Documents on Armenian population. If the Armenian side does not recognize the Ottoman Documents how we can be sure about the alleged population numbers. The Armenian side says the only reliable figures are the British and other foreign states’ diplomatic figures. Please note it that the Ottoman State was in war with , and at that time. So, all these figure are belong to the enemy countries’ documents. I think Turkish historians cannot use the British documents instead of the Ottoman documents. In fact even the foreigner reports show that the number of Armenians in the Ottoman territories was less than 1,5 million.

According to Talat Pasha’s documents the Armenian population in Anatolia was 1,256,403. Talat Pasha says the number reduced to about 400,000 after the 1915 relocation campaign because many of them did not return to Anatolia. The number of Armneians in Istanbul was about 80,000 and almost none of them left the city and the number remained the same after the relocation.

You say that we try to question the statistics. However even the Armenian researchers cannot agree on the same numbers. Some Armenian historians say that about 500,000 Armenians were massacred during the First World War, some other say about 1,5 million. The Wales Armenians even increased the number to 2,5 million. I am sorry but there are about 2 million people gap. So not us but the Armenians play with the numbers. The real number of the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire was about 1,5 million (total Armenian population) and many of them had dual citizenship.

First census was made during the Mahmud II in 1830 in the Ottoman Empire. According to thies census the men population of the Empire in Anatolia and the Rumeli (Balkans) was 4 million people. According to the census documents 2,600,000 were Muslim men, and 1,400,000 were Jews and Christions. The number of Christians in Anatoliawas about 400,000 in 1830.

Another document in the Ottoman Archives shows the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire as following:

Eastern Provinces: Muslims (3,635,086), Armenians (810,285), Total (4,445,371)

Istanbul and Neighboring Provinces: Muslims (4,426,525), Armenians (283,064) Total (4,709,589)

Palestine, Syria Provinces and the Islands: Muslims (4,068,646), Armenians (59,018), Total (4,127,664)

TOTAL OTTOMAN POPULATION: Muslims (12,130,257), Armenians (1,152,367), Total (13,282,624)

The mentioned Ottoman document says that some of the provinces had yet to be registered. So the numbers should be slightly higher. Prof. Dr. Stanford J. Shaw on the other hand says that there were 12.585.950 Muslims, 1.139.053 Armenians in 1890. Shaw documents that the number of Muslims increased to 14.111.945 in 1897 and the Armenian population increased to 1.162.853. In 1906 the population of Muslims was 15.518.478, and the population of Armenians was 1.140.563. In 1914 Muslim Ottoman population reached to 15.044.846 and the Armenian population was 1.229.007, according to Prof. Shaw. Many Armenians immigrated to the Western Europe, and the before 1914 due to the economic reasons. Many became American, Russian or French citizens

The Muslim population was 13,339,000, and the total Muslim population in the Ottoman territories was 1,234,671 according to the Ottoman official census documents.

Armenian 'propaganda papers' say that Turks massacred 75 percent of Armenians out of 2 million Armenians. So there was only 500,000 Armenians alive at that time. Now the total population of Armenians about 8-9 million. So the Armenian population increased 16-18 times in 90 years. Is it logical? No people’s population could grow 16-18 time in less than 90 years. If we apply the figures to , it means that ’s population will be about 20 billion in less than a century. Please be reasonable. If there is such logical gaps in the Armenian allegations, of course we have all the right to question the statistics. We do not minimize the figures but some Armenians exaggerate the figures. In fact the ultra-nationalist Armenians create a new past. They create figures and even documents as we experienced in the Talat pasha Telegrams Case.

I said “We lost more than 5 million Turkish people during the collapse of the Empire.” What is wrong with that? You cry for your people killed and died, and we ask respect to our people massacred too.

You say “The British Ambassador to Constantinople , Sir Harding Lauter, wrote to the British Minister of Foreign Affairs in 1910 that there only 6 million out of the 30 million population of the Ottoman Empire were Turks. So, how can I believe that you got your statistics right, when you say that you lost 5 million Turks during the collapse of the Empire?”

The problem is that the Ottoman Empire was not a solely a Turkish Empire. It was a multi-national state. And why are you believing the British Ambassador? Do you think the British always say truth? That is the problem: The Armenians did not trust to their own neighbors but the enemy states during the war times.

2. Your second point is that “Rationalizing the deaths as the result of tribal conflict”

You say “You made it look like a communal clash, something that is not.”

Communal clashes is a fact and the Armenian history books are also full of the proofs of this fact. Kurdish and Armenian tribes clashed severely. Kurdish gangs attacked the Armenians, and Armenians attacked the Kurdish. Thousands of people lost their life. This is not a secret. If you look at any book on “history of Tashnaks” or “history of Armenians” you will realize that.

You say “Armenians were massacred by government orders, carried out by soldiers of the Ottoman army, local police, tax collectors & the special organizations (Teskilati Mahsusa).” But which Armenians? Armenians killed by many different groups. It may be true some were killed by the army officers, police or tax collectors like any Ottoman citizen. And many of these criminals were punished by the Istanbul Government. In fact the number of executed officers in the Ottoman courts is higher than the Nurnberg Courts after the Second World War. Even a governor was executed by the Istanbul government for his mistakes against the Armenian civilians. It is unfortunate that the modern Armenians obsess with the genocide that is why they cannot see that it was a war time.

There are at least 5 main reasons for the Armenians casualties:

1. Bad administration and negligence. Ottoman officers and governors could not protect the Armenian citizens. In fact they could not protect the Turkish and other citizens as well.

2. Communal clashes between Kurds-Armenians and Turks-Armenians. During the first Armenian riots many Muslims lost their children, wives or husbands. So a revenge campaign was triggered.

3. Relocation: During the relocation the weaker Armenians died due to the bad road conditions, bad weather and famine.

4. War circumstances, economic reasons, famine and epidemic diseases.

5. War and riot. Many Armenians joined the Russian armies and many of them were killed by the Ottoman Armies. And during the many riots hundreds of Armenian armed gangs were killed by the Ottoman police and other security officers. However none of them can be considered as a part of genocide or massacre. If you fight against your own state, you deserve to die. It is a universal love anywhere in the world.

If we do not separate the different reasons and if we label all Armenian casualties ‘massacre’, we can never reach the truth.


3. The Ottoman Government was in a war in all fronts from Balkans to Caucasus. All men were in the clashes against the occupiers. Only the illegal armed men, old people, children and women were in the villages. Very little Ottoman soldiers were with the relocated Armenians masses. That is why the Armenian people on the road very easy targets for the revenge attackers and for the Kurdish and Turkish gangs.

4. I do not try to justify something in favor of current economic interests. I just say that needs . 2,5 million-Armenia is surrounded by 100 million Turkish people. A fight or disagreement is not very helpful for the ‘poor’ . If the Turks hate the Armenians they would not try to establish dialogue and co-operation with the Armenians. does not need 2,5 million Armenian market instead of bigger and richer Azerbaijani market. When tries to establish economic relations with , she risks its interests in . So it is not ’s current economic interests. Armenians have insisted on genocide for last 90 years and it has not harmed Turkish economy or in general. No state would end its trade or other relations with because the Armenians want so. I cannot see any great economic interest in solution of Armenian issue. But you or anyone cannot deny the Armenian interest in the solution. If opens its borders, the Armenian companies will freely enter the 75 million-market. is a bridge for the European Union and the Mediterranean. Turkey is strategic and vital gateway for sea-locked Armenia. But the Armenian diaspora cannot understand what needs. The life in California could be comfortable, but in a country isolated economically and politically is not comfortable as in the.

I do not try to justify the past or any mistakes. But I just say that we should more focus on today than we focus on the past. Past is important but today and future is more important. I don’t say ‘just forget your genocide allegations’. I only say that life continues and the Armenians in needs business than the endless discussions.

5. Anytime we may discuss the definition of genocide according to international law, and the 1915 events cannot be considered as genocide.

6. You wrote that we blame the victims, you mean Armenians. Please please…. You cannot divide people as Turks and Armenians. All Armenians were not victims, and all Turks were not murderers. It is well documented that more than 5 million Turkish people were massacred. More than 520,000 Turkish and Kurdish people werer massacred by the Armenian armed groups. Tashnaks wrote in their history books that they killed many Turks. They considered themselves hero, but I name them ‘murderer’. Turks and Armenians, both are victims, and both could be murderer. Being Armenian doesn’t make anyone victim, or murderer.


7. You say “There is no criminal who voluntarily admits his crime, and the same goes for the Crime of Crimes”. 1915 events happened during the Ottoman Empire, before the Republicof Turkey. All documents show that there was no genocide, but communal calashes and riots. Armenians have claimed the reverse. So they have to prove their claims, not me. If you accuse any nation of committing genocide, all nations reject such allegations. does not deny, but rejects the baseless allegations. If you want more territory, compensation and revenge you must bring proofs. And remember the Armenian terrorism. ASALA terrorists killed many Turkish diplomats who had no link with the 1915 events even no idea on Armenian issue. All were innocent civilians. All were just diplomats. An the Armenian terrorists killed them and even their wives and children. If you kill more than 40 Turkish diplomats after the 50-60 years, of course Turkish people do not admit anything. Even they would reject to discuss the matter. You name the Armenians ‘victims’, but I saw many Armenian photos that pictured them heavily armed. All these Armenians armed for what. If they did not riot against the Ottoman Empire, why did they militarized.


Of course peace and reconciliation are more important than blaming people for genocide if there is no genocide. And there is no genocide. But there are riots, communal clashes and terrorism.

You wrote “Moreover, the international genocide scholars, have described the Genocide as a process of eight distinctive stages: The final stage of EVERY Genocide is Denial. So, if they deny a Genocide, it would be more proof of the fact of Genocide itself.”

It is funny. You blame, I don’t accept your blames, and I become denier. What kind of a justice is this? So if I blame you for committing genocide against the Ottoman Muslims and Azerbaijanis in Khocali, and if you does not accept my claims would you become a denier?

About Gallipoli Findings: (You wrote “Excuse me, but there is a huge difference between belongings kept in museumexhibits, which are collected at the time of WWI, or shortly thereafter, and belongings that are buried in the humidity of 90 year old graves. I don’t see the relevance”)

You still do not believe that many 90-year old belongings found in Gallipoli and in the eastern provinces. As a matter of fact, that we should not consume our energy on this matter. If you ask anyone, who is expert on archeology or history, he/she will confirm me. By the way, the villagers around Gallipoli still find 90 years-old belongings and they give them to the museums.

Your wrote “And there are more than 3 million Turks ONLY in , in addition to few more millions in Europe & America. What does that have to do with anything? How does that disprove/prove the facts of the Armenian Genocide. Let’s not deviate from the subject which is the “Armenian Genocide.”


There are more than 3 million Turkish people in and more than 5 million in other EU countries. But half of has not immigrated to other countries. Turkish diaspora is not bigger than ’s population. ’s population is still 75 million, not 2,5 million. I do not insult the Armenian peoples or just making a childish comparison. Anyone could immigrate anywhere. But Turkish people do claim the territories or any other neighbors’ territories. However the diaspora Armenians live in California or in Lyon and they still demand more territories for . If a nation’s 75 percent reject to live in their homeland, they should not ask more territories. It would be illogical. You say “let’s focus on genocide issue, do not deviate the subject”. However the Armenians mean more territory, compensation and half of when they say genocide. So no Turkish can believe the Armenian goodwill in historical disputes. Dou you want a recognition or more territories from . Decide it first.

You wrote ““I’m sorry, it seems that you know nothing about the relations between the Armenians in the Diaspora and . I encourage you to take a closer look at the numbers and statistics before you say that the Armenians of the Diaspora haven’t invested in .”



Excuse me but I have 4 books on modern . One of my books is on Armenian diaspora and I wrote many articles on the subject. When I say “Diaspora Armenians should make investment in ”, I use Armenia Armenians phrases. They complain about the current situation not me. Of course the diaspora Armenians buy houses and lands. But they do not make serious investments. GDP per capita in is less than 1,000 dollars. Obviously is a less developed country. There are more than 6 million Armenians in diaspora and the total population of is less than 2,5 million. Diaspora Armenians do not invest in enough, and they will not. Because the capital is the same everywhere. No investor spend money in such an instable country. has serious problems with all neighbors except . She does not recognize ’s and ’s borders. She has occupied almost 20 percent of neighboring and has no diplomatic relations with another neighbor, . Yerevan ’s relations with has not been easy one. The country has no sea port and the Turkish gate has been closed. Would you invest your money to such a country? The Diaspora Armenians will continue to their fight against until the last Armenia Armenian. Diaspora sacrifice and Armenians in .


- You say “you sell my house to me”. I am sorry but you have no house in . I did not kick you out of your house. Remember, this is , not the Ottoman Empire . My grandparents were exiled and they left their all belongings in . But I do not blame all Greeks or modern . Past has past… If you have anything here you may apply Turkish courts as one of the Armenians did in Adana . By the way many Armenians have bought houses and hotel-kind businesses in Van and in other eastern provinces. recognizes all European human rights documents. And you may even apply to European Human Rights Courts for your belongings. There is no obstacle. If you have anything in Turkish cities, you may get it.

You also say that “while you are plundering “MY” house and property, granting it as a gift to your elite people or sold it and with “my” properties’ money you built "your strong state." All these sentences could be considered insult to me and to . is a now strong country. But she was not after the First World War. Thanks to the Armenian riots we lost a war, and an empire. Millions of Turks left their homes and valuables in the Balkans and in the Caucasus . Many were massacred by the Russians, and the others. Turks lost their cities and towns because the Greeks fired many towns and cities in the Western provinces. Thanks to the Armenian riots, the Eastern provinces could not be developed. has not getting stronger on the Armenian or Greek belongings. You left a country in fire. has been getting richer in the last decades due to the good relations with the neigbours. Turkish export has grow more than 60 times since 1980. And I think you would accept that your ruined houses played no role in this miracle. By the way, the eastern provinces are still the poorest region of while the Istanbul Armenians are among the richest people of modern . Many Armenians have factories and million-dollar-companies.


You name Eastern Anatolia “my house”. If you call my country as “my house” we cannot find a ground to discuss anything.

ABOUT THE GERMANS: Germans have been the only genocide committed nation till now. And they searched a friend and now they try to add new nations to the list. Because when one says genocide all remembers . The German Parliament took a pro-Armenian decision. But don’t forget. The parliaments are the political places and they behave according to their national interests. If the German parliament take a pro-Turkish decision, will you change your ideas about the Armenian issue? Now the Armenian lobby is strong and they manipulate the Western parliaments, but the balance may change in time. In fact the real problem is that the Armenians try to use other states to force to accept something instead of direct dialogue. When you undermine Turkish interests in other countries and when you make allies with the anti-Turkish groups, Turkish people do not believe the Armenian sincerity. As far as you are among all anti-Turkish blocks, no Turkish man could trust you.


You say ”I understood from what you have said above, that you are not ready to give up on the “so-called” “alleged” “disputed” words and descriptions that you still using while mentioning the Armenian Genocide. You are not ready to remove them, not because the Armenians’ approach is “shut up and accept,” but because you are not ready to listen, to understand, or maybe because you are personally benefiting from using such expressions.”


Please don’t forget that I have been studying Armenian history and politics for the years. I know what you say. That’s why we named the Armenian approach as “shut-up-and-accept-it” approach. We actually do not discuss anything yet. I understand from your letters that this is the first time you read Turkish ideas on Armenian issue. I am not trying to change you. I do not try to change your ideas. All Armenians are free to say genocide, or massacre to the 1915 events. But I do not accept such blame.You wrote “there would be no point at all for our dialog. When you are not yet ready to listen or to give up your denial to the historic fact of the Armenian Genocide.”


Please remember we discuss whether the 1915 events is genocide or not. But you try to force me to accept ‘genocide’ term. If recognizing ‘genocide’ is a pore-condition, what is the point in discussing whether 1915 Events genocide or not.


I am ready to listen to you, read your letters, or any Armenian’s letters. We publish them. It is really a valuable experience for me and for the Turkish people. I hope it is useful for the Armenian readers as well.

Regards,

Sedat LACINER

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