Armenian Letters II

FROM MARAL DER OHANESIAN TO SEDAT LACINER

(2nd Letter) Sun, 4 Sep 2005 12:58:56 -0700 (PDT)

Dear Editor,

First of all, I would like to commend you for the many positive points you've admitted in your letter to me. But I would have to comment on some of the other points you listed.

Armenians lived in and around Anatolia, not for thousand years as you mentioned, but as the “Triumph Obelisk” of the Akkadian Sargun & his grandson, Nram-Sien recorded the Akkadian’s wars against the “Armani” people in Ararat, & given the fact that the Akkadian Kingdom was demolished around 2900 BC, we are left with a solid evidence which clearly states that the Armenians lived in this land for at least 4000 years.

Now let's get back to our point, the "mass graves". I would like to know the names of these Turkish scientists that had confirmed the Turkish mass graves according to the points you have mentioned. To be honest, I don't think that any scientist, or even a specialist, would make a judgment based on what you've provided as evidence. A specialist should know that mass graves, are graves that contain more than one dead body. Mass graves are created in two cases: One of them is the case of massive disaster, like floods, fires, diseases, etc., where there are huge numbers of corpses that the authorities can't bury traditionally, due to lack of time, unknown identities & epidemic diseases. The other case of mass graves would be war crimes & genocides. In that case, the perpetrators of that crime would need to hide their crime as soon as possible, make it as anonymous as possible, to cover it up.

Any specialist would know that. Any one who uses common sense would know that. Any specialist would know that a grave, any grave that would be dug up 90 years later, even 50 years later, would hardly contain any belongings. One would be lucky to find complete sound bones of the corpses. How about mass graves, which are made by the perpetrators to hide their crimes!!!

It is silly that a SCIENTIST can claim that he found a tobacco box with crescent in a 90 year old mass-grave, and claim that whoever made these mass graves did actually consider traditional burying!!! Unless, what those scientists found was nothing more than a Turkish cemetery.

You said: "I do not deny the fact that the Eastern Provinces are important for Armenians. The region is historically Armenian." Again I will have to commend your courage to counter the official Turkish position, in admitting that western Turkey was in fact an Armenian land. Then you added: "but at the same time Turkish and Kurdish.” Now the question that imposes itself here is how this homeland of Armenians became home for Turks & Kurds?! Well, the answer is very simple. The Armenian homeland simply turned to be a home to Turks & Kurds, because the Turks occupied it, gradually evacuated it from the original owners by harassing & abusing them at the beginning, then finally massacred them or sent them to the death caravans of deportation.

Then you made an argument based on comparing the number of Armenians & Muslims at the time of the Ottomans & today. Excuse me, but I don't see your point!! What does that comparison have to do with anything? No one claimed that the Armenians were the majority in the whole Ottoman Empire? Armenians were majority in the Armenian provinces, as the Arabs were majority in the Arab lands.

The Committee of Union & Progress wanted to quickly uproot the Armenians -- the legitimate owners of those lands and properties -- by massacring them. That’s why there are NO Armenians today in the historical Armenian lands. Anatolia, as you courageously admitted, was and always will be an Armenian land. Arabs got their homeland back, and we have the right to get our homeland back too.

I don’t know what qualified you to attend the making of the offer for the DNA test to Armenians, but I wanted to ask you to send me a copy of that report, as you must have one, for as you said that you attended the talks!

Once you claimed that Armenians’ approach is “shut up & accept”. I am ready to prove that is not the case, & I will suggest as a response to the offer that you made in your email saying “ I and the JTW is ready to play any role in such a co-operation and dialogue”, I suggest a one on one dialog, between you the Chief Editor of JTW & this ordinary young Armenian girl. I think that you won’t refuse such a dialog, if the initiative you made is really what you wish for!

To make that dialog worth going through & so it won’t be a waste of your precious time nor mine; I will ask for a publication of that dialog in your journal, and as a result, if you manage to convince me of your point of view that is the Armenian Genocide is merely allegation, I will stop complaining about the credibility of your reporting & news. But if I manage to convince you that the Armenian Genocide is a fact, then it will only be fair & honest from your side to commit yourself to omit each & every _expression that JTW uses to cast suspicion on the fact of the Armenian Genocide, such as “ so-called” , “ alleged”, “disputed” & “ allegations” … etc.

It’s your turn now Dr. Laciner to show the sincerity of your offer, & accept my humble invitation to this published one on one dialog.

Regards,

MARAL DER OHANNESIAN

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Dr. LACINER’S LETTER TO MRS. MARAL DER OHANNESIAN

(2nd Letter) 14 September 2005

Dear Maral Der Ohanesian,

First of all I should confess that I cannot understand the Armenian obsession with the past. History is important and should be discussed. However the discussion on the past does not allow us to discuss today in the Armenian case. Particularly when Armenia needs Turkey's friendship. I think you and the other Armenians cannot trust Turkey's sincerity about Turkish-Armenian friendship. It is unfortunate for Turkey and Armenia I think. Armenia especially lose time under these circumstances.

Now let's get back to your letter:

”I would like to know the names of these Turkish scientists that had confirmed the Turkish mass graves according to the points you have mentioned. To be honest, I don't think that any scientist, or even a specialist, would make a judgment based on what you've provided as evidence.

”Actually the Turkish History House (Turk Tarih Kurumu) and Ataturk University, Erzurum made some studies in Erzurum, Agri, Kars etc. provinces. And it is open to all the researchers to make research in the region. I mean any Armenian could search the Armenian mass graves as well. Also Turkish History House made DNA test to prove that those killed were Turkish. Turkish Delegation in London made offer to make more DNA tests to the opened graves, yet the Armenian gentlemen did not accept the offer. In fact none of these is important for me. Many were massacred in the East. I know that thousands of Turkish villagers were massacred by the armed Armenian gangs during the First World War and aftermath. No Turk denies that many Armenians were massacred by the Turkish and Kurdish gangs. The problem is that Turkish people does not accept that the killings was a genocide. It was a communal clash. Both sides suffered. And counting the corps or bones does not make any sense. I respect the Armenians and Turks killed in the clashes. It was purely dirty politics and they paid the cost. The Armenian extremists continued their fanaticism in independent Armenia and they lost their state to the communist USSR. Turkish people preferred to forget the memories and focused on to establish a strong state. I think not the Armenians but the Turks were right. Armenians are still speaking about hostility, revenge and killing. But the time passed. And we do not want to kill anyone and we cannot accept any genocide allegation when we paid more than the Armenians lost. We lost more than 5 million Turkish people during the collapse of the Empire. Many civilians were massacred by the Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians, Russians etc. Most of them were civilian and women-children-old people. We do not want to discuss all these. You are speaking about mass graves, in fact I prefer to speak about highways between Turkey and Armenia, regional economic integration in Caucasus etc.

You say in the letter “Any specialist would know that. Any one who uses common sense would know that. Any specialist would know that a grave, any grave that would be dug up 90 years later, even 50 years later, would hardly contain any belongings. One would be lucky to find complete sound bones of the corpses. How about mass graves, which are made by the perpetrators to hide their crimes!!! It is silly that a SCIENTIST can claim that he found a tobacco box with crescent in a 90 year old mass-grave, and claim that whoever made these mass graves did actually consider traditional burying!!! Unless, what those scientists found was nothing more than a Turkish cemetery.

”No, it is not right. I saw many English, Turkish and French belongings from the Gallipoli War in the museums. I lived for the years around Gallipoli and I know that many villagers found soldier belongings and mass graves around the region. And you should accept that thousands of Turkish and Kurdish villagers were massacred around Van for instance. And many Armenian books accept this fact that many were killed by the Tashnak militants. All these people were covered with their belongings by the Armenians or later by the neighboring villagers.

- “You said: "I do not deny the fact that the Eastern Provinces are important for Armenians. The region is historically Armenian." Again I will have to commend your courage to counter the official Turkish position, in admitting that western Turkey was in fact an Armenian land. Then you added: "but at the same time Turkish and Kurdish.' Now the question that imposes itself here is how this homeland of Armenians became home for Turks & Kurds?! Well, the answer is very simple. The Armenian homeland simply turned to be a home to Turks & Kurds, because the Turks occupied it, gradually evacuated it from the original owners by harassing & abusing them at the beginning, then finally massacred them or sent them to the death caravans of deportation.”

I just say Anatolia is not only Armenian but belong to many different nations. Of course Armenians established states in these territories. But also Greeks, Arabs, Kurds and Turks established their own states. And what is the point to remind the Armenian past of Eastern provinces. What do you really want: To occupy the Eastern part of Anatolia? To take revenge? Imagine all the Eastern provinces of Anatolia is yours. I mean all the East Anatolia is a greater Armenia. So what. With 2,5 million Armenians you cannot establish an Armenian Empire… Diaspora Armenians have not returned to Armenia to live. In fact about 1 million Armenians immigrated from Armenia to Europe and Northern America. So it is very difficult to understand why the Armenians want more territories. They want Karabakh and more Azeri territories, they want some parts of Georgia, even some from Iran and Russia. Today Turkey is a 75 million-country. There are more than 30 million Azeri Turkish in Iran and Azerbaijan.

And there are only 2,5 million Armenians in the region. Let say 3 million. More territory, for what. If Turkey gives all of the Eastern provinces to Yerevan, there will be no Armenian state, and Armenians would become minority in their own state. Now all Eastern provinces, including Ani is open to all Armenians. And thousands of Armenians come and visit the region. You or any Armenian could buy territory in the region, or settle permanently. There is no problem. If Anatolia is important for the Armenians, they should make investment there. By accusing or killing the Turks you cannot reach any of your aims.

- You say in the letter: “No one claimed that the Armenians were the majority in the whole Ottoman Empire? Armenians were majority in the Armenian provinces, as the Arabs were majority in the Arab lands”.

I think we read different history books. Armenians were not majority in any Eastern provinces at that time. If you compare the Armenian population of that time and today” Armenian population you simply find the fact.

- You say “The Committee of Union & Progress wanted to quickly uproot the Armenians -- the legitimate owners of those lands and properties -- by massacring them. That's why there are NO Armenians today in the historical Armenian lands. Anatolia, as you courageously admitted, was and always will be an Armenian land. Arabs got their homeland back, and we have the right to get our homeland back too.”

For what? Why you want Eastern Anatolia? Arabs have more than 20 states. And you see their situation. If you cannot establish a real state, more territory is just a problem. I think time has changed. We do not need more territories, but economic power. If Armenians are serious about their claims, they would have invested to Armenia. But they did not. Because the Armenians in US and in other countries are not serious about the past or about Anatolia. Most of them have not seen Anatolia or met any Turkish. They just trying to preserve their identity, they just resisting assimilation in US and other countries. It is sorry but the Armenian diaspora abuses the problem. The diaspora just works for itself, not for Armenians in Armenia. If the diaspora wanted, they could make Armenia the richest country in the region. If they were serious about the Armenian home in Anatolia, they would have made investment in Anatolia as the Jewish people made in Palestine. Turkey is a liberal open-market.No doors are closed to Armenians.

- You say "I don't know what qualified you to attend the making of the offer for the DNA test to Armenians, but I wanted to ask you to send me a copy of that report, as you must have one, for as you said that you attended the talks!"

I am sorry but I do not keep all the reports about Armenians. However you may ask for a copy to the Turkish History House, Ankara.

- "Once you claimed that Armenians' approach is 'shut up & accept'. I am ready to prove that is not the case, & I will suggest as a response to the offer that you made in your email saying ' I and the JTW is ready to play any role in such a co-operation and dialogue', I suggest a one on one dialog, between you the Chief Editor of JTW & this ordinary young Armenian girl. I think that you won't refuse such a dialog, if the initiative you made is really what you wish for!"

Of course I do not refuse to make dialogue with you. I never question your or the Armenians sincerity about their arguments. Most of the Armenians are sincere and have good-will. The problem is obsession with the past and victimization feelings among the Armenians. I and JTW are ready to play any, but any role in solving the problems between Turkish and Armenians.

- "To make that dialog worth going through & so it won't be a waste of your precious time nor mine; I will ask for a publication of that dialog in your journal, and as a result, if you manage to convince me of your point of view that is the Armenian Genocide is merely allegation, I will stop complaining about the credibility of your reporting & news. But if I manage to convince you that the Armenian Genocide is a fact, then it will only be fair & honest from your side to commit yourself to omit each & every _expression that JTW uses to cast suspicion on the fact of the Armenian Genocide, such as ' so-called' , ' alleged', 'disputed'"

Thank you for your honest offer. Bu you should accept that we are not speaking about fact both of us accepted, but the beliefs or faith. It is very difficult to me to change an Armenian's faith. However I accept your offer. Of course I accept. But I know that the issue is not convincing of Turks or Armenians. Because they have never really made a dialogue. Anyway, I accept your offer, and JTW will publish your and mine letters next week, If it is OK for you too.

Dr. Sedat LACINER

2005-09-20

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